Debate, by Michael Munkasey
This all began from email correspondence between
Kaye Shinker and Michael Munkasey and Kaye's question...
I've bought and sold YELL:NASDAQ several times using the data from
your Company data CD that I bought about five years ago. I know
I've purchased at least one update since I entered the chart on
my computer, and now the comments column for this company has me
They traded as YELL on the NASDAQ until January,
2006; but now they are trading with the ticker symbol YRCW.
According to an article quoting a Wall Street Journal
article dated January 3, 2006, "...Yellow Roadway will change
its name to YRC Worldwide Inc. to avoid negative connotations, reflect
the expansion; and will also change its stock symbol on the NASDAQ
Stock Market to YRCW tomorrow."
So I'm assuming January 4, 2006 would be the IPO
date but I have Feb. 18, 1971 in my IPO list, and Dec. 15, 2003
shows in your company data comments section as another change. Weird
though, that Yahoo historical price data goes back to July 9 1986.
And what's weirder is that there isn't data going back earlier.
My question is about the comments column you provide
giving additional information. Do you give this just for information's
sake or should we research that date also?
THE DATA DEBATE
1 October 2007
by Michael Munkasey
There is debate among users as to whether to use
the most current first trade or incorporation data, which is shown
in the columns, or to use an earlier set of data which is shown
in the comments section. Some people are strong on one side of the
argument, but then people are just as strong on the other side of
this too. That is why I provide all sets of data. My personal opinion
is that it is the most recent set of data which is the important
It is important to realize that companies are NOT people. Company
charts are NOT people charts. Companies live and die by the stroke
of a pen on official documents, although the company "persona"
can exist through time, the company is an official entity created
by a legal jurisdiction, like a state (e.g., DE, MA, NY); or a country.
MICROSOFT's INCORPORATIONS AS AN EXAMPLE
For instance, Microsoft started out as unincorporated, in AZ about
1978, but have had three different incorporations since then. Their
latest incorporation in the early 1990s, does seem to give a chart
which mirrors the direction the company has been going in since
then. When I saw that chart for the first time, I said "Government
Interference" -- and then shortly all of the lawsuits against
them started. Interestingly enough I ran across a bunch of the Microsoft
lawyers at a gathering, and started to talk with them, but they
were so arrogant, so with it, all of them, that I said "to
hell with them" and kept my comments to myself -- but I could
have helped them pick a much better incorporation chart. Their 1980s
incorporation chart was a great chart, showing growth and expansion,
and they grew rapidly with that chart. Their re-incorporation in
the 1990s showed no such growth, and also a lot of outside interference.
Since then they are getting what they spawned.
INCORPORATION or FIRST TRADE?
Both the incorporation as well as the First Trade charts are important
to study if you want a good understanding of the entity. (I write
"entity" because that is a broader term and includes ETFs,
Indices, Mutual Funds, Companies, etc.) As to whether to use the
most current set of data, the data in my data base shown in the
columns, or the data in the comments section I provide, that is
another question. There is no current correct answer to the question
as to whether to use the most recent set of data for the current
trading symbol; or to use the data for an older trading symbol.
Some people prefer one side of the set of data, and others the other
side of the data. The best I can do is to provide both sets.
Also, remember that a company's reputation, its
persona if you will, persists through time, even though their legal
status can change. IBM started around 1910 making industrial scales
to weigh trucks and heavy loads. Along the way they changed their
name, again and again, and eventually became who and what they are
today. I write this because it is not the persona of the company
which we seek with the data, but the current legal status of the
company. The legal status of a company is not the same as the date
of their founding in some instances. In other instances these remain
the same. It is also interesting to note that in the 1940s when
computers were just being introduced, it was decided by "experts"
that "perhaps" six could be sold. Yet, even with this
"forecast" IBM decided to take a chance with this new
technology and proceed with its development. Then marketing took
Remember, a company is NOT authorized to do business
legally until the jurisdiction in which they are incorporated says
that they can do that -- and that happens when the jurisdiction
approves their incorporation status -- which is the most recent
incorporation information I provide in the columns. One minute before
approval they do not exist, and at the time of approval they do
exist and can proceed with their business. This is an either/or
Companies can incorporate in more than one jurisdiction,
but to do so would double their paperwork and tax liabilities. Thus,
almost none do that.
When you place a trade you trade the most current ticker symbol.
Not an older or a prior ticker symbol. Yet some people insist on
using data for the old symbol, and that is why I provide both sets
-- so people can pick and choose.
The information I have in the data base for YRC
Worldwide seems to be correct. They changed their ticker symbol
from YELL to YRCW effective 01-04-2006, and that is what my data
I can not help what Yahoo! or other Internet data
sources show. Who says that they are correct? Who maintains their
data? Often they will go back to the original date they started
listing prices, which may or may not be the date that the current
ticker symbol started. The date which Yahoo! shows could be the
date they listed on the OTC, before they went to the NASDAQ and
before the company, say, went to the NYSE. Even then, I find dates
from sources like Yahoo! only to be about 75 to 80% accurate.
Along the way you have to trust one or another data
source. The data from the NASD or the NYSE librarians are only about
75 or 80% accurate too. It takes LOT of time and research to track
down the correct dates, and that is what I try to do. I probably
have mistakes in my data base, but I also constantly check and double
check to see that what I send out is correct. I don't see Yahoo!
checking or double checking their data.
In another clarification, the term "IPO"
and "First Trade" are often used to mean the same thing,
but they really are different. The IPO ("Initial Placement
Offering" is one interpretation of that acronym) refers to
a projected date when the people planning on bringing an entity
to an exchange listing foresee the date of First Trade. The IPO
date may or may not, however, be the date that the ticker symbol
actually trades for the first time. In the "First Trade"
column of my data set, I show the date, and time when I can get
it, for when the ticker symbol shown first trades. In about half
of the instances this is the same as the projected IPO date, but
quite often it varies by one or more days. I have seen these dates
vary by as much as several weeks -- usually when some of the official
paperwork needs revision, and resubmission to the governing agencies.
Hope this helps.
Thanks Michael for answering my question and clearing
up my confusion with data usage in general. I know all of the Financial
Astrologers thank you for your work and I for one consistently profit
from it as well.
The cost for the data base is US $360.00;
postage paid in the US. Foreign postage extra. Updates for registered
users are $140. each update. Michael Munkasey California, USA
The Company Database
further information contact Michael Munkasey and AstrologicalInvesting.com.
help support our site by using our bookshop for all your Amazon.com